Creating a More Fulfilling and Equitable Workplace Jonathan Dumas

Creating a More Fulfilling and Equitable Workplace with Jonathan Dumas

Leading to Fulfillment
Leading to Fulfillment
Creating a More Fulfilling and Equitable Workplace with Jonathan Dumas
Loading
/

When culture fit becomes an excuse for exclusivity it can create issues in the workplace. Here’s how you can make changes that allow people of all backgrounds to feel welcome, fulfilled, and valued within your company.

In this episode we discuss…

  • Removing the barrier between the “personal self” and the “professional self”
  • Redefining culture fit and rethinking our hiring practices
  • The power structure of organizational culture and becoming more equitable and diverse
  • The value of diversity in creating a fulfilling work culture

About Our Guest

JonathanDumas is the founder and owner of CommonCulture Coaching & Consulting which specializes in helping leaders eliminate the line between their “work-self” and their “personal-self” in order for them to be their full authentic selves in both.

He holds a Master of Science in Organizational Psychology with a focus on Diversity and Leadership and is passionate about empowering leaders to create equitable spaces for those around them.

Jonathan also hosts a podcast called, Real Talk with Dumas, where he has meaningful and substantive conversations on society and culture.

Resources Mentioned on the Show

Transcript

Jonathan Dumas: I just see the dramatic impact and dramatic effect of just like not letting your ego as a leader guide your decision making, decision making. But like involving the people around you and saying, like, what do you think about this? And I really want your honest opinion and taking that into account. And if you believe that, like, not just believing, but like also taking risks on what they suggest to, you know, like sometimes like they suggested something and we did it and it didn’t work. But you know what? I encourage them to take those risks again. And they I mean, it was just an awesome thing.

James Laws: Welcome to another episode of the Leading the Fulfillment podcast where everything we talk about is meant to encourage people. First, leaders empower individuals to achieve fulfillment and help your organizations become places people love to work.

I’m your host, James Laws, and I have an amazing show in store for you. My guest for this episode is Jonathan Dumas. Jonathan is the founder and owner of Common Culture Coaching and Consulting, which specializes in helping limit leaders eliminate the line between their work self and their personal self in order for them to be their full, authentic selves. And both.

He holds a master of science in organizational psychology with a focus on diversity in leadership and is passionate about empowering leaders to create equitable spaces for those around them. Jonathan also hosts a podcast of his own called Real Talk with Dumas, where he has meaningful and substantive conversations on society and culture. In my conversation with Jonathan, we discuss removing the barrier between the personal and professional self redefining culture fit and rethinking our hiring practices.The power structure of organizational culture and becoming more equitable and diverse. And the value of diversity in creating a fulfilling work culture.

But before we jump right into my conversation with Jonathan I would like to invite you to subscribe to the Leading the Fulfillment podcast in your favorite podcast tool. We are on YouTube, if that’s where you watch podcasts, but we’re also on Apple Google Podcasts Spotify and pretty much everywhere else you can find podcasts. So if you like the show, head on over there. Subscribe and perhaps even consider leaving us a review now that we got all that past us.

Let’s jump into my conversation with Jonathan Dumas. Jonathan, thank you so much for agreeing to be on the show today.

Jonathan Dumas: Yes, thank you so much for having me on. This is an absolute pleasure. I appreciate you reaching out.

James Laws: I really appreciate it. I was looking over some of your material and and some of your history and the work that you’ve done. And I see there’s a quite a bit of overlap in some of the things that we talk about. And although we might not use the same words in, which is what I think will be interesting to kind of dove into that.

So from my perspective, it’s the idea of like work life integration, having hard conversations, and then this idea of creating kind of just equitable and fulfilling work environments and organizational cultures. And so I think there’s a lot of overlap around that. So I want to kind of start off on that first one. I talk a lot about in an our on our blog and in the podcast, I talk a lot about Work-Life Integration, and I kind of fight against this idea of Work-Life Balance because I just don’t think that any of us are looking to balance our work in our lives. And I think we’re more complex than that, right? We’re not just half work and half life where we’re a whole bunch of different things, and we want to integrate all of those things to be a complete and total self. You talk about the work self or the professional self and the personal self and trying to remove the barrier between these two.

Can you talk about how you think those ideas that you have, maybe how those things come out and how they may be different from maybe how I think about Work-Life Integration.

Jonathan Dumas: No, I love that. And I even love your framing of like, how can we integrate those things together, how I view those things. In the past when we look at like how organizations, like told us how we’re supposed to act right is like, leave your personal stuff at the door. Just come, come in. Right. But I think even particular for, you know, me as a black man, there is so many societal things that I cannot leave at the door.There’s so many things that exist and permeate everywhere I am. So it’s really impossible for me to leave, you know, my blackness at the door. And so I think as I started to die, digest this, think about this, even speak about this a lot and work with my coaching clients on this a lot. Is that how do we get rid of this idea that we have to separate the two?

Like, I don’t think that that those things were even possible for anybody, even eventhe I guess the quote unquote status quo of who who belongs in corporate America or within organizations. And so how I how I even think about those things, it’s like we have to create. There has to be some level of harmony. Right. We can’t, like, disavow from our personal self.Our are our work self. It’s like the whole person. And I want to I want to show up holistically in both. And so that’s how I kind of like view those things. And and I love I just love the integration piece, how you how you frame it. It’s really good stuff.

James Laws: You know, and you talk, you know, speaking about that, you talk about a part of that that, you know, me being a white guy doesn’t think about like I think about like, yeah, you’re right. You can’t always leave your personal life at the door. Like when you come to work, you are your personal life. And honestly, let’s be honest, as an employer, I hired your personal life because your personal life and those experiences are part of who make you who you are and help make my business and the business and the team more full. And but I never, you know, that idea of right. Like I think about it of like, you know, you have trouble or, you know, the kids are cranky or the white you got to fight with your wife, you know, or all those. I think about this idea like you can’t leave your blackness. Yeah. At the door. Like, that’s not something that can be separated.And yet it comes with stuff, right? That comes with stuff that you have been carrying with you. And now it’s you and you can’t just separate that. And I think that’s that’s something I guess I hadn’t considered when I think about even that, leaving your personal life at the door.

Jonathan Dumas: Absolutely. And I mean, how could you. No one but to it’s like not even just like the negative things, right? Like we think about all the things that happen in the news. We think about all the inequity that exist within in particular, our context in the U.S., like us, American, like context and society. But like I even think about like my culture, like my culture and my black culture is just like there’s so much richness and fullness there that actually enhances our corporate culture. Is actually enhances our organizational cultures, our teens, everything about it. And so I think for me, I absolutely love my blackness and my black culture and everything that I come from. And I think there is a richness that adds in so and adds to it. And so like I’ve gone to a place where like I work for myself now. So that’s I’m thinking about this, about who I work with at this point. But like, if I, I don’t no longer like code switch anymore, you know, if I’m going to do a presentation or keynote, like, I’m a let myself shine through it because like, this is who I am, you know, and, and there is significant value there. And so like, if you are, if you are unaware or don’t know or don’t understand that language, it shouldn’t be my job necessarily to conform. Right? Conform like you probably should hire somebody or choose somebody that kind of like fits that mold. But then we also get into some other biases. Things hiring practices, all those different things about culture fit, yada, yada, yada. And so, like, I just don’t believe in like conformity for the sake of for the sake of money, for the sake of like a position or anything like that.

Personally, I’d rather I really encourage folks to be like, hey, if a place doesn’t like appreciate you for all of you, even like the mess that potentially comes with not like, you know, bad employee kind of mess, but like, you know, racist things that that come with individual stories that make them who they are. How can you partner and work with them and support them to be like to make this an equitable place for everybody, to just place for everybody. So yeah.

James Laws: And I love that you talked about that that culture fit. And I kind of know where I can I kind of already can tell where you’re going with that a little because I think about that, too. We talk about fit like we talk about fit when we hire and we’re looking for people who are the right fit and yeah, we are looking for people who are the right culture fit. But we have to be careful what we mean when we say that. I look at it as, you know, I’m hiring for core values. A lot of times I’m looking for people who match our core values. But on top of that, I’m also looking for people who are going to make us what I aspire us to be. And that means sometimes hiring people that are different from our current culture and sometimes that culture fit is hiring people who don’t actually match the culture that you currently have.They are going to bring something that adds to the culture that you are that you want to be. And I think that’s a big part of culture fit as well.

Jonathan Dumas: Oh yeah. 100%. And there’s a way about going about it like you have. I mean, you have these things that you like you you have to hit your organizational goals, right? You have to, you know, meet these deadlines. You need somebody that’s that knows how to do the job that can that could do the job, right. But there’s like these abstract things that actually lends itself to like sometimes explicit bias, not just implicit bias of just like saying like, oh, just wasn’t a culture fit. Like, what about that person wasn’t a culture fit? You know, they got together. They y’all were having a good time. And then it got down to the final, you know, this person, this person or it was they were the final choice and then all of us that you somebody had a disagreement on, like, I don’t think that they fit the mold of this organization. Well, what does that mean? Right.

And even there’s ways to even combat that within yourself. Or interrogate that within yourself of like having somebody that can check that using language like culture. Ad I love how you said like this. What can this person add to our community? What can this person add to our organization or culture that actually makes us better or gets us or changes directions that we’re getting closer to where we want to land you know? Yeah, I love that. And I feel like, you know, when I used to recruit, I used to I used to like I used to think of like all these transferable skills that could, like, work within like a team. Like, if I’m recruiting for something, I’m like, oh, you know what? I think this person could fit because they did this, this, this and this looking at their their resume and asking them. And sometimes I’m like, you know, you know, there’s some people that just, like, don’t think that way. Like, that’s my, that’s like sometimes, like, incentive. Like, there are some transferable stuff that exists within your story that actually line up with the position that you want to do just because you don’t have like, you know, there’s just like things that, like, makes sense.

Like for some of the clients, I have they’ve been translating for their parents for, you know, since they were three years old, you know, really important documents and different things like that. And throughout their entire life, translating for their parents, that is a skill, you know, a lot of people that don’t have. Like, that’s a skill that you you were, you were raised in. And so like there’s not like this formal thing, but like how can we even, like within an organization see that as a skill, see that as a value, see that as a culture add when we think even about that, just because somebody doesn’t have a formalized even training in like translation, obviously, I know that there are some positions that need that formalized training.But just like I’m thinking in general, you know, I’m saying.

James Laws: Really love the perspective that you talked about. They’re hiring so many times when we’re going through this hiring process and we’re looking at resumes and we’re looking at all of these different people we’ve hopefully tried to do a really good job of getting a large number of applicants from a diverse set of world experiences. And a lot of times our process for looking at applications is how do I ask who do I exclude? Like, I’m going through it saying, all right, well, you don’t meet the qualifications, you don’t meet the goal. I love the perspective of thinking about how do I include them, what is in their background that’s unique about their story that actually makes them the right fit for this job. Not just they didn’t have they didn’t they’ve never worked in the specific role that I’m hiring for, but they’ve got all this rich history, started doing all this other stuff.

And I absolutely So talking about our own business, one of my products is run. The guy who runs it now, we hired him. He was a high school biology teacher. Okay. Not have any experience running a product. He didn’t have any experience marketing. What we thought he could do well in conversations was take a complex idea and making it easy for people to understand.Yeah. And we had software that we wanted people to understand and engage with. So we hired him initially as a writer, and now he runs the entire product. And I think that’s that that idea of like looking for people for the depth of their experience. And you may find that you have someone super special for a role that you might have excluded because they just didn’t check the box of, oh, they, they’ve worked in that role before. And so I love that idea of looking for how to include them, not how to exclude them.

Jonathan Dumas: Absolutely. And it’s not the thing is too, is that it is a lot of extra work to do it that way. Right. It’s a lot of extra work. A lot of asking additional questions, examining that which the process, the current process of hiring, the current process of like looking at applicants and all that stuff. Is already one costly but two very, very time consuming.

And so even what I’m talking for is like even the recommendation of this is like almost radical in a way, taking this nuanced approach to to even like how you decide who is going to be on your team or or what even kind of who is in your pool. Right. But I think even the way that we do what as we’ve seen in the last two years with the great resignation and so many people applying for jobs, the way that the current model of like even interviewing and applying for jobs, it’s so outdated. Like the idea to I’m going to submit a cover letter that I’m going to submit an application, then I’m going to give you my resume and repeating the same information and adding on to the work. And so I even think that those models need to be shifted, changed, rethought, reimagined, not just to be more inclusive, but to like shake up some of our workplaces. And I think we would be pleasantly surprised when we have, you know, statistics prove this research prove this, that when we have more diverse a more diverse company, not just by ideas and thoughts and backgrounds, but like just culturally all of the things, they tend to be more innovative and more profitable. Like it’s just the fact in so like it might be worth it to reexamine these like hiring practices and stuff like that. So that’s just my $0.02 on it.

I notice a leadership podcast, but like I’m really passionate about the whole gamut of how organizations are run. And I think to some extent it starts with hiring not just who’s who is in the lead, but like how are you bringing more people on your team and creating that culture?

James Laws: Oh, I 100% agree with you on the podcast one of the and circles in general and in our own business, our whole focus is about developing people, first leaders. And in order to be a people first leader, sometimes you have to do things the harder way, the radical way in order to get at the core of what you really want to accomplish. And so by being a people first leader, sometimes that does mean that, you know, I hate to say it, but this you know, we talk about resumes and cover letters and you know, these people who use these systems because they get thousands of resumes that just basically throw them out if they don’t have certain keywords in there, like they’re being scraped by a machine .And if they don’t find the word that they wanted, they just kind of toss it aside and if now granted, if you’re a major corporation and you’re getting tons and tons of applicants, you know, that’s maybe the the a necessity necessary evil of your hiring process. But as a smaller business, when you’re talking under 100 people in your company, you have the opportunity to to do things.

I always say this in startups right? Do things that don’t scale, like in the early days when you can do the stuff that doesn’t scale. Even with this podcast, I send out some gifts to the guests after we record. I don’t want to ruin the surprise for you, Jonathan, but I just want to come and yeah, but I can’t keep that up on my own forever. But it’s an early stage of the podcast. I want to do something a little special. And so you do those things that don’t scale an early start of your business. When you’re small, you get to do those things that don’t scale and actually can have a better impact on who you bring on your team.

Now, speaking of people, first leadership, you talk a lot about organizational culture, and I know you’ve been thinking a lot about the power structure of organizational culture and how does that work.Tell me a little bit about some of your thoughts on leadership in organizational culture and how we can make our organizations more equitable, more diverse as we move forward.

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah. So here’s another radical idea for you. And and it really comes from I’m not going to claim this because it’s not mine, but it comes from like indigenous wisdom, from, from fromfrom native thinkers and more collective communities. So like we think about decision making power within organizations we have that we currently how we do it in Western society is a triangle. And so it’s top down right in so like I’m, I’m your manager, I’m your leader. I’m going to tell you what you’re going to do instead of like incorporating the team, incorporating into what we’re trying to figure it out, how together, how we’re going to navigate this decision this thing. Right. And my thoughts about this is, is it’s more comes from my background, you know, not just from like the indigenous wisdom in different things like that, but just like my, my values of teamwork, my, my belief in the teams that are the people that are around me. And so I think back and the reason why I believe in this so much and I believe it can work is because I’m thinking back to I and my previous role right before I went out on my own, I was tasked with taking over a I used to manage co-working spaces. And so I had one that was relatively small, only about 20, 25,000 square feet, about 150 150 seats. So it wasn’t really big. But then, you know, pandemic hit, there was some shakeups in and positions, all these different things. And so I was tasked with taking on one that was closer to 70,000 feet, 70, 75,000, and then it had like closer to like a thousand seats or something like that. And then I took on like a million combined between the two was like $1,000,000 in revenue.

Like for me like that, that’s a lot for me. So I mean it I, you know, I’m middle manager like newer to like this level of like sales and everything like that. And so I had a team that, to be quite frank and honest, was not just because of the pandemic, but because the last person that had that place just just, I mean, just ran over them, just like steamrolled over them, didn’t, didn’t inquire about how they felt about decisions. And he was new and some of them had been there for four or five years, you know, and so the knowledge of that place existed within the team. But he made decisions based off of what he believed was right and didn’t involve them either. There are some other things, I believe, that were the cause of that. But I’ll say that for another podcast, not good about anybody, but the butbut so what I did was and there was one person that was on the verge of quitting, and I knew for a fact that this person had I I believe a lot of people have potential, but like she there was something there and I don’t think it was just untapped. And I feel like because she would come and cover at the site. And so one of the things I decided to do was just say, hey, we’re going to restart, we’re going to restart. You know, I didn’t use the things of like, you know, a managing your I didn’t do anything like that.

I said we are going to be a team. And so like when there’s a decision that needs to be made or anything like that, I’m going to ask for y’all’s input and I really want your honest answers. And there was more times than not like I would ask them like, hey, should we move forward with this? Is this right? What do ya think? And involve them. Morale shot up in the middle of a pandemic. Morale shot up. And in fact, I got I got notified that they spoke up more and other meetings. They were more involved in other projects across the organization, not just on our team. They were starting to before it was just like that one person making sales. Everybody on the team was closing and making sales. Happiness shot up. Everybody was laughing. We were, we were connecting because we felt the team and there was a shared distribution of power. I didn’t say that I’m going to just like do this. Obviously the final say comes to me because like, if there’s sometimes I have a little bit more knowledge and I will, I’ll let them in on what I can let them in on. But like that’s what I’m talking about.

And like, I just see the dramatic impact and dramatic effect of just like not letting your ego as a leader guide your decision making decision making, but like involving the people around you and saying, like, what do you think about this? And I really want your honest opinion and taking that into account. And if you believe that like not just believing but like also taking risks on what they suggest to, you know, like sometimes like they suggested something and we did it and it did work but you know what? I encourage them to take those risks again. And they I mean, it was just an awesome thing. I still have context with that team to this day and seeing them do amazing amazing things in the organization. It’s incredible. But not to toot my own horn, but just to use that as an example of the power of like not letting your ego take over divesting and moving into a space of like community wisdom and a shared knowledge instead of just like this individualistic look, I hold all the knowledge, I hold all the keys, which is really this faux egotistical, like form of leadership, which I don’t I don’t really abide by or believe in. Yeah.

James Laws: Yeah. I, I really love how you, you know, in that story too. It demonstrates the power that leaders have to give their team members a voice beyond even their own teams. You talk about how, you know, you, you got word back that people on your team were more vocal in other areas, in other meetings and other places, because what you did was you said your voice matters.

Jonathan Dumas: Yes.

James Laws: You are valuable a part of this team. I hired you or you were hired. You know, whether it was me or someone else, you were put on this team because you have knowledge and skill and experiences either in the industry or different than my own. And you can add to that and that empowerment, they were able to take that away from your meetings and bring that to other areas of their life, which I think goes so well to what you were talking about, even in the very beginning of, you know, separating our personal and professional life as leaders we don’t always realize that we actually do impact the personal lives of our teams by how we empower them and how we give them energy and fulfillment in their work. One of my my goals for my team members is ultimately to figure out what energizes you in your roles, what brings you fulfillment, and how do I create that for you in a way that the organization still gets benefit. But so do you and when I can find a way where we both win, we both win. Like, that’s ultimately the point. So I love that demonstration of leadership giving your team a voice and sharing that demonstrating value so that they can feel valuable beyond just even in that meeting.

Jonathan Dumas: Absolutely. And it really comes from a mentality of abundance and not scarcity. Right? Like me as a leader, it’s not that I have anything to lose, but what can I gain? Right? What can we all gain from you? And I just want you to come back to something I don’t like. We can’t give them a voice reminding them that they have one. Right, reminding them of their thoughts, their ideas, even the risks that they want to take are valuable and they mean something. And they can just how they can have as much impact as I can. And just because I have a title doesn’t make me any better than you. It just I. I might have a little bit more experience than you or, you know, have a little more knowledge in this area, but, like, you still might.It’s whatever you bring to the table is definitely still valuable. Because you’re here, you know what I’m saying? And so, yeah, I really try and operate out of abundance, and I try and remind people that there’s so much to go around so, so much to go around. We don’t have to operate out of a, a mindset of scarcity when it comes to recognition, doing the work, doing a good job and providing impact for not only clients, but our team members, the organization, society, all those different things.

James Laws: Yeah. You know, you talk about sharing power and empowering your team. And I love that nuance, too. And I think you’re right. We don’t we can’t give someone a voice. They have a voice. We can simply let them use it and give them give space for them to use what they already have. And I do, and I love that distinction.

What are some other ways leaders in an organization action can empower their teams, share power, share leadership to their teams and develop them, or at least give them room to shine and win in an organizational culture?

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, well, one of the first things that comes to mind is is understanding that everybody communicates differently. And so, like, just because just because like you have some people that talk up a lot in a meeting sometimes they have something to say, sometimes they don’t. But but you have to you got to remember, like there are other people, other ways that others communicate. And so, like, understanding those communication styles and providing room for those communication styles as well. Not everybody likes to talk up in a meeting, but they’ll talk at Talk One-On-One. And so like remembering in your check ins to like come back to like, how did you feel about that meeting? Was there anything that I missed? Was there anything that you want to contribute to this? Like, we still haven’t made a decision here. I just want to make sure that everybody’s heard on the team. What are your thoughts? And just being willing to ask that additional question can be so impactful and and more times. Not when I did that. They didn’t have anything to share. It’s fine. But when I did, it was so valuable. What they provide it. I’m like, I didn’t even think literally didn’t even think of that. I didn’t consider that. I didn’t see that. Thank you so much for sharing.

I think another way, when people take risks, when people when people put themselves out there and it is like really uncomfortable for them and they fail or and they fall short because sometimes they won’t, but when they do, don’t beat them up about it. Even if it costs y’all something, even if it costs the team something, ask the question because they know they did bad. Ask the question. All right. What did you learn? Like, what do we what have we learned? How can we grow from this situation? And again, operating not at a place of loss of scarcity, but operating out of a place of abundance and growth. How can we move on and move up from the situation? Like those are the top two things I can think of right off the bat. And then just I think always just like examining who was at your table, examining who was always speaking up, examining who was there and present and if it’s the same kind of mentality, same kind of look feel. If it’s if you got like a siloed kind of like thing going on for your team, maybe you got to rethink that and kind of like do some interrogating of where did that comes from. Right.

 And for, you know, if everybody if everybody on my team is a man, I’m going to evaluate that. Whether, you know, we’re black, all of us are black, white, Latina or anything like that, I’m going to examine that because we don’t have the full width of that or if we’re all you know, we have to really examine that because we’re not getting the full perspective of that. And so how do we engage with other perspectives and bringing those voices in as well? So those are the top three things that I’ve I think of.

James Laws: Those are extremely solid. And I know everyone takes takes, takes heart to those especially you know, I think about what you said, how people communicate differently. We talk a lot in the podcast. We bring it up a lot about one on ones. That is a great opportunity for you to learn and connect with your team members and understand how do they communicate, how do they how do they receive praise, how do they get feedback, how do they receive feedback? And by knowing that you can actually engage team members in a powerful and fruitful way, where they can actually give the value that they have in a way that they feel comfortable and safe to do so. And I appreciate two, I actually just talked about this in, in previous episode, this idea, this freedom to fail and to fail gracefully and to learn from our failures, failures, ultimately our opportunities for us to grow and learn and be better than we were before. And so I love that.

And to be honest, the people at the table, it’s one that hits home you know, just being completely honest. When I started my business, I you know, I hired friends who are, you know, right around me, close to me. And so it didn’t take long for me to realize that I had a bunch of white dudes on my team. Yeah. And that was about the only voice that I was hearing. And how can I how can I properly serve a diverse customer? Base when I oh, we only see one perspective. Yeah. So we. We’ve been working on it. And I’m not saying that we’re doing great at it because, you know, we’re still not a huge team. We’re about 25 people and we sell a lot of room to go. But I edit what you said is like looking at who you have at the table, who’s there really hits home with me. And I’m constantly trying to figure out like, how do we be better? How do we do better? How do we get a more diverse group of voices at the table so that because I, you know, speaking, you know, that actually comes to one of my thoughts, right? I mean, we talk a lot about fulfillment. Fulfillment is an important part of the conversation. And this podcast in my company. And when I think about who’s at the table I wonder, it seems to me that having a more diverse group of people in your organization and at the table actually amplifies the fulfillment of everyone at the table, even those who are not of a minority or you know what I mean? Like, yeah, in the organization, I think it adds value to everyone. Would you say that’s true? And how do you think diversity helps an organization be healthier be more fulfilled?

Jonathan Dumas: Yeah, absolutely.Hmm. You said something and I wanted to come back to it, but it’s gone. Maybe it’ll come back to me. But honestly, so having a diverse team, you know, oh, that’s what I was going to say. I want to just touch on this real quick, so to speak, on the like the even the diverse team thing. We don’t want to get into like this this mindset of just like having a person of color at the table equals diversity. Right? Just being really explicit like this also includes, like, somebody who thinks differently from you. So, like, if somebody comes from a different background different culture values, all those different things, obviously you want cultural organization or cultural alignment as far as like values and everything like that. But I’m talking about values as far as personal self. But the but there is something along along those lines of like this faux diversity of like we have diversity but we don’t have inclusion, we don’t have equity, we don’t have justice. Right? And that’s the money, money part of where you want to get to where where there is and not just a diversity a diverse group of people, not just an inclusive place of people, but a place of belonging. And to get to youryour point just now, when we think about belonging, right? When everybody feels like like this is a great place to be and you see different people and you’re learning different things in your you know, I mean, food inevitably comes into play because everybody loves eating, you know, saying and and music and different things like that. You’re getting exposed to different things. It’s like a truly incredible experience, you know.

Like some of my happiest times is like introducing my white wife to like something from my culture. Like, it’s it’s really one of my funnest things, like just going downtown because I live in L.A. So going downtown and just like getting soul food and just and just loving it up. And she she loves it, too. So it’s just like all these are these are incredible, right? And so like, it’s every day we have an opportunity to learn. Every day we have an opportunity to commune and communicate and interact with somebody different it’s not a scary thing like when you feel and create like when leaders create a space of belonging, it actually like creates this space of where of trust, a vulnerability of, of, of hard and honest dialog. When you can do that with the people that you work with, when you spend a lot of time with like you can’t help but be, be happy, you can’t help but feel fulfilled. Like there’s there’s something to that, right? And there’s probably some statistics or research that go there. It’s just not come into my mind at the moment.

While I’m speaking to it just I can’t lead you to a, a direct research that I’ve read. But, but all of those things exist and I just think of some of my best team moments where, where I could trust the person next to me, where I could be my authentic self. And if we need to have a hard conversation, we can have our conversation and we can move and grow from it.And we’re, we’re all everybody successful, right? And so that’s why I think it’s so important. That’s why I think it’s so crucial. And that’s why I’m, like, baffled that, like, a lot of organizations are, like, catching on within the last, like, ten years that this is something that’s important. Right.Again, at least as far as like this resurgence of the importance of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. Obviously, there’s certain things that have been going on for years, but just a resurgence in the last five to ten years. So yeah.

James Laws: No, it certainly I mean, it certainly seems to be a buzz topic at times. And but I think there are people you know, like us who are having this conversation. You know, it’s it’s funny, I have always cared about it. And yet and yet I found myself in a situation where because I wasn’t examining myself and I wasn’t being self-reflective in the decisions that I was making, I found myself accident really creating something I didn’t want to create and creating a culture that I didn’t ultimately want to create.  And it wasn’t intentional. And that’s the thing like you can you you can unintentionally create aa not a great culture and and you can accidentally stumble into an amazing culture. And I think what’s nice is our culture at our organization is is healthy and it’s strong. And we all want those same things. But I know there’s ways for us to grow and continue to develop that and I love that this just the communal and connection together.

One of my my theories in fulfillment in general as leaders, our responsibility is to give our teams clarity, collaboration and connection. And that connection piece is really important in a remote culture. Yes. Harder than ever to create true connection with the team members. And that’s something I’m also always kind of thinking about is like, how do you build that, that equity?How do you build that belonging? How do you build that connection? And not just and I say this is true from a diversity standpoint, but it’s just truth and organizational standpoint. How do you what do you recommend to help build greater connection, belonging and equity within an organization? What are some steps that somebody could try to start

Jonathan Dumas: Absolutely. I think it starts with like to go back to even your point about like accidentally creating a culture that, you know, like even the like a monoculture, right? Of just like, oh, I’m looking around and everybody looks like me, right? It’s just like paying attention to like the things that you’re doing, right? Because like, we grow up a certain way and it just seems natural to just go about this way.But like taking the extra step and the extra care and interrogating how we’re building something who are inviting in decision making, all these different things because like sometimes it’s just as little it just is that one step of like asking that digital question, like who am I missing? Who’s who’s impacted by this decision? How are they impacted by this decision? Different things like that.

That’s the number one I would say is like, just think just ask one more question, one more question. Realistic steps, practical steps you can take. Now, understanding. So like there’s plenty of, of, of like I don’t want to just like recommend books and podcasts and stuff like that. But like I would say as on an individual level, find ways to make yourself feel uncomfortable. And why do I say that? The reason why is because when we are comfortable, we will make decisions and going back to the things we are, we are natural. Bendis to do things that like just make sense and like that will navigate and fit into the pieces that like seem okay for us. Right. So like for me like I naturally bend and go towards, you know, all black folks.You know what I’m saying? In like having people black folks on my podcast, like hanging out with black friends and all that stuff. But like, am I really going to get the fullness of diversity right if I have like this whole thing? And it’s a little different because like I’m having like black spaces for, for me is really important.

But like you’re talking about from, from like if we’re trying to do this from an organizational standpoint, it really is to like, what are some ways that you can make yourself feel uncomfortable and say you’re like, you know, honestly, in the Midwest, like the suburbs in the Midwest, it’s not going to be diverse like that, you know? And so like I would recommend like listening to podcasts from black and brown folks, like people that don’t look for me, like look like you or even like people that don’t even have the same sexual orientation or or binge or that are on the gender spectrum.Right.  And learning from those communities and like really uplifting and supporting those communities in ways can, like have you rethinking and challenge you and making you feel uncomfortable and challenging the status goal and disrupting your own mindset and perspective. Gosh, other things. I feel like it goes along with a lot of the other things that I’ve shared today. Yeah. You know, asking that additional question, like seeing other people taking that extra time to see other people, how are they doing?

Paying attention? Oh, this is another one. Paying attention to what’s happening in society. The reason why that is important is because like and I say this because like this is I’ve major a majority of the time I’ve heard this from my white colleagues. But like something will happen in the news to black and brown folks to yeah. Just like different things like that that’ll happen. And there is no like recognition of those things happening is just like another thing that has happened in the news. Right. And for me, I carry that, you know, I can’t it’s hard for me to see, you know, those videos of black people abused by folks who are sworn to protect like it’s hard for me to see that.

And so, like, that impacts my work, right? That impacts those. And so, like, that goes along with making yourself uncomfortable. But it also is understanding how that could potentially impact your team, how that can impact your organization. And different things like that. So a jumble of things at the end. But like a lot of the things that I already said throughout our conversation today, you could really like do right now besides just listening to podcasts and reading books, like there’s things that, you know, go eat different foods, like experience different things, make yourself feel uncomfortable yeah.

James Laws: I want to say no, that is what you said there at the end to I think it’s powerful and it’s, it’s definitely a gut check for me to think about. Like, first of all, you know, am I just making decisions that make me comfortable and, or am I looking outside of myself to grow? And in order to grow, I have to be stretched.And stretching is uncomfortable sometimes. And so to allowing myself to be stretched beyond my comfort zone. And then, you know, I wrote down here, right. People first leaders have to think about how what the decisions that they make, how they impact the people they serve and all of the people that they serve, not, you know. And so as I wrote that down, I thought about what you said about two like world events.

And, you know, I struggle with that, too, right? Like, you come you come into the office or you come into your, you know, communication tool the next day from, you know, after a big event like that on the news and people first leader has to consider, right? Like how or how am I team? How’s my team feeling right now? Like this could be really impacting them and they may be shook. Yeah. And and that and and and it should matter to the leaders of an organization that their team has shook anyone in their team in shock and so yeah, they get super powerful.

Jonathan, thank you so much. I want to give you the last word. Is there anything that you want to share and see how people can get in touch with you? Anything like that?

Jonathan Dumas: No, just a major shout out to you. This has been a pleasure to speak with you, James. If you are interested in learning more about me, reaching out to me, working with me, you can reach me on my website, Common Culturecc.com, or I’m on LinkedIn, Jonathan L, on LinkedIn and then Common Culture CC on all socials, different things like that.

I do coaching and consulting for four organizations trying to create thriving cultures and working one on one with individuals on leadership and career development, which really entails, you know, examining if you’re stuck, lost and kind of passionless, how do we reignite that? And you induce an archeologicalarcheological dig on what you got going on under there and launch you into what you want to do.

So yeah, I’m really excited. This was this was awesome. Thank you so much for having me, and I look forward to hearing from you folks and seeing what this podcast becomes because I know it’s newer, so I’m really excited.

James Laws: Yeah. Thank you so much. We’re going to put links to everything that Jonathan mentioned in the show notes, so be sure to check that out. And I will certainly be reaching out on socials to connect.

Jonathan Dumas: Absolutely. Let’s do that. And I forgot to mention, I also am a podcast host. I have a podcast is called Real Talk with Dumas have been going for two years. And so if you’re interested in like hearing these everyday conversations, you know, meaningful, substantive conversations with people I see everyday, you can check that out as well. I absolutely love your platforms.Yep.

James Laws: Awesome. We’ll look for that link in the show notes. Johnathan, thank you again so much for being on Leading to Fulfillment. I really appreciate it.

Jonathan Dumas: Yes. Thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it.

James Laws: What a great conversation. And thanks again to Jonathan for joining me on this episode of Leading the Fulfillment.

Everything we mentioned, including a full transcript of the show, is available over and over on our website and you can access it anytime you want by visiting leadingtofulfillment.com/012 that’s leadingtofulfillment.com/012

Bringing someone new onto your team, regardless of how big that team is, has an impact on the culture of that team. Of course, it makes sense that you think about this impact, right? Hiring someone can make can make your team exponentially better or exponentially worse. This drives many employers to put a lot of emphasis on whether or not an applicant is a culture fit. However, all too often the phrase culture fit is used to tell employees why they weren’t chosen for a position.

At best, it’s become a default for employers who don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. And at worst, it’s become an excuse for racism and prejudice. Unfortunately, what we often mean by culture fit is does this person look, talk and act like us? If this is a question that drives your hiring decisions, you’re going to end up with a company made up of people with the same experiences and beliefs. And what good does that do for you, your business or your customers? I’m not saying that culture fit is an important, but we need to really think about is what we mean by that phrase. Don’t dismiss people because they aren’t like you actually do the opposite. Look for people who aren’t like you. Diversity of people and experience expands who we can be. It’s about hiring people for who we want to become. Not who you are.

Thanks for listening and I hope you’ll join me on the next episode. And until then, may your businesses be successful as you lead your teams to fulfillment.